It really is time for people to learn and accept the fact that the MCSE is not coming back. A couple of years ago we went to the MCITP model to show the actual differentiation in tracks of certification. Look, I get it: I’m attached to my MCSE too, I’ve held that certification since 1998. But I’ve moved on, and you guys should too. We’ve earned our new MCITP Enterprise Administrator, and the more we proclaim it, the more recognition it will receive. You should be proud of attaining that certification.
This is another case of history repeating, when the MCSE first came out few knew what that was all about either, but we talked about it and those outside our IT circles came to know what we knew, that the MCSE was the person who made the magic of IT happen. The MCITP Enterprise Administrator is the new certification to show who is the one who has the magic of IT, but that does not change the fact that there is no MCSE for Windows Server 2008 and there never will be.
Now that the harsh truth is out there, and yes I got voted the one to give the harsh truth, there is an alternative. The MCSE 2003 is a nice beginning for the MCITP Enterprise Administrator, it is the upgrade that you are looking for. It covers the things that an MCSE used to. Total of 5 exams if you are not already an MCSE and if you are already an MCSE there’s an Upgrade Path.
So you might ask yourself, why is Bill telling us stuff we have already heard, the answer is that it seems that many people out there have either not heard it or just don’t want to listen. In the past couple of weeks I have answered this question at least 5 times, “where is the MCSE 2008?” And I told them the same thing that I am telling you, there is none. So here we are with the “new” certification, it’s not really new as anyone who did SQL Server in 2005 can tell you, but how do identify to others the lofty achievement I have attained? I tell them I am an Enterprise Administrator on Microsoft Windows Server 2008. That is usually sufficient to most people; I know it worked with my parents. If not then I go into further details of what the MCITP is and how the program works.
The next question that comes up is what do I do if I am partly through the MCSE 2003, should I finish? Of course you should, Windows Server 2003 is not going to go away any time soon and there is plenty of work out there, there are still people running on both Microsoft Windows Server 2000 (nearly 10 years old at this point) and Microsoft Windows Server NT 4.0 (well over a decade old). I of course would tell those people to upgrade to an operating system built in this millennium but that is another discussion. So I don’t see those MCSE for 2003 suddenly gathering dust in the corner somewhere, so finish what you started. And then do the upgrade to MCITP Enterprise Administrator and have multiple servers that you are certified to work on, thus expanding your job opportunities. And in this economy anything that expands your job opportunities is a good thing.
So in closing today the only thing I have to say is,
The MCSE is Dead, Long live the Enterprise Administrator.
Posted by BillChapman
Comments
Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:15 PM by Aaron C
Now if we can just get the HR people to ask for MCTS or MCITP. They seem to be stuck in the past as well. I still list MCSE 2000 and MCSE 2003 on my resume because I have not seen any job listings asking for the new Windows Server 2008 certs yet.
Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:17 PM by Krosen
Good point, Aaron. We have folks working on just that issue right now... would you guys be interested in hearing from them? I could ask them to guest-blog here.
Thursday, January 29, 2009 5:07 PM by Greg
Hear Hear!
1995: MCP
1999: MCSE+I (NT4)
2001: MCSE:Security (Windows 2000)
2004: MCSE:Security (Windows 2003)
2008: MCITP:EA (Windows 2008)
What s next?
Thursday, January 29, 2009 7:32 PM by Michael D. Alligood
Bill, you now have my vote for Post of the Year! Excellent job!
Thursday, January 29, 2009 9:53 PM by Edward Laverick
While I agree the MCITP is the way of the future, the value of any certification is in how it is held by the people that matter. In this case as Aaron says that is the HRs and CIOs of this world.
The other issue is as Bill has pointed out MCSE is specific to a technology, my MCSE shows that I am adept at planning and administering a 2003 (and backwardly compatable) network infrastructure, the MCITP shows a competancy primarly in the 2008 server platform and while this is still the case this demonstrates a less relevent approach to the current business market than MCSE.
MCITP is the future and will be my target for the next month, but I m yet to be convinced it is the present.
Thursday, January 29, 2009 9:59 PM by becn
Yes, MCSE is dead. But I dont really care about those initials. What I really really REALLY miss is the nice, clean, simple graduation mcp --> mcsa --> mcse.
Now we have a complete hodge-podge of TS s and ITP s. The current explosion of certificates is a complete mess and such a disaster I ve stopped bothering to follow them or update.
My CV is now more portfolio based than certificate. Emphasising skills by the projects I ve completed rather than exams passed.
Friday, January 30, 2009 5:42 AM by Thomas Lee
That s what I said several years ago on my blog. Only when I did, Microsoft demanded I pull the post.
Nice to see that MSL have finally realised that they ve killed off one of the better brands ever. And replaced it with an inferior one that has been poorly evangelised and is still relatively unknown.
:-(
Friday, January 30, 2009 9:50 AM by Julian West
Bill, tell the ones who voted you the "one to give bad news" that you guys are really making us miss Trika sometimes. ;) Just kidding...
I know you aren t trying to politely invalidate the MCSE, but honestly it s the one HR folks are still asking for. Your points aren t met with market-reality yet, but 2009 s economic problems and the ensuing glut job-seekers WILL push MCITP further along.
It took a decade of post Novell-CNE era nearly a decade for the MCSE to truly take hold IT markets, and it will take (less) time for MCITP. I got my MCITP EA at a time when fewer than 4000 other people had it, and I don t see it anywhere near outnumbering the MCSE for at least another year or two. Of course MS wants to change that (hence the reason you were "voted" to give us this "bad news"), but MS doesn t have to do anything: the ailing economy and job cut environment already has IT folks back on the certification-treadmill, regardless of this blog.
I only confuse people when I try to correct them about the "MCSE 2008" questions, and yes I get them. Of course it s annoying to have to explain it but, then again, the MCSE s value is no less diminished. In fact, in a post-2003 era, if two potential-hires come to me looking for a job, the one who has a range of experience administering various Windows infrastructures and has just an MCSE has the edge on the lesser-experience guy no matter what MS certs he holds. So MCSEs don t despair, BUT realize that this economy will generate a TON of MCITPs over the next 18 months or so. You will need to skill up on 2008 products NOW and certify on the new track, regardless of your IT environment, if you want to add additional insurance to the ole resume. MS hasn t yet got the message to the HR folks, but once they do, they WILL inevitably start asking for MCITPs in a couple years.
Also MS Learning Team: PLEASE let MS know they need recessionary discounts considered for the MCM, beyond the temporary ones. If I am a 15-year IT vet with MCITP:EA, 2 MCSEs, an a CCNP I shouldn t have to surrender a ton of coin to take an MCM class up in Redmond or go for the MCA.
Friday, January 30, 2009 11:09 AM by Lee...
The MCSE isn t dead, it s just not receiving any further support, which is a shame.
It s kinda funny being sentimental about certs, but with the MCSE there was a history, a legacy, a continuation. NT4, 2000, 2003, and then you just blew it out of the water with the good ship MCITP.
OK, so you ve got to roll with the punches, and when the supertanker with speedboat tendencies decides to change course then everyone else, has, regrettably to follow. The king is dead, long live the king and all that.
So as a learner, what do you do? Well after being very angry at MS for a while, I completed my MCSE 2003, then went and upgraded to MCITP, then I decided to do other certs, namely Cisco and ITIL. At the moment, I see greater value away from MS certs, because the message about the new certs is just not getting out there, and a lot of companies in the present economic climate have what I’d call, upgrade fatigue , they are making do with what they ve got.
And so I am a drifter , I have drifted away from MS certs, the MCM programme looks very interesting, but, like with all things at the moment, It s too damn expensive. I m sure It s a fantastic experience and the learning content is awesome, but when you factor in things like course costs, travel, accommodation, time off work etc etc you’re staring at probably 25 large. The current discounts are a nice gesture, but not enough. And as the recruiters don t even know what an MCTS is, then what hope do we have that they know what an MCM: Directory / Exchange is? Yep, the same figure probably came to your mind also!
So to summarise, MCITP, it s new, it s shiny, it s not recognised (outside MS), a bit like driving a new car through town and nobody noticing. Yeah you spent all that money and no one is even interested.
PS. Nice post Bill, bad news is always difficult to deliver. I especially liked the line it is the upgrade that you are looking for , reminded me of, well, a phrase from a well known movie circa 1977... Move along...
Friday, January 30, 2009 11:55 AM by Michael Dragone
"Good point, Aaron. We have folks working on just that issue right now... would you guys be interested in hearing from them? I could ask them to guest-blog here."
YES! It would be nice to know what is going on to educate the HR departments.
Friday, January 30, 2009 12:15 PM by RobE
I m amazed that some here are praising this decision.
The MCSE was and still is a very strong brand and to replace it with these bland obscure terms is a very bad move in my opinion. The benefits of certification have become far weaker as time has progressed and this is demonstrated in real terms such as salaries offered for vacancies requiring certification as well as the popularity of the certifications. These changes only serve to weaken the value further.
Being able to say “I have an MCSE” was a nice clear term that had gained recognition both in IT and with those who worked with IT staff. Now we have “I am an MCITPro EA”, not exactly catchy is it? There’s also the “administrator thing”, we already had an MCSA and that was the mid range qualification and now the higher level is also an “Administrator”. Not good for anyone who had an MCSE, worked on implementations and likes the separation from admin roles. This leaves only the new MCM cert which given the costs alone is not a practical proposition just about everyone.
I accept the MCSE is a dying cert thanks to you and your colleagues but that doesn’t mean I have to like it or that Microsoft products and certifications will be my preferred choice in future.
Thanks a bunch!
RobE MCSE since 2000
Friday, January 30, 2009 3:34 PM by Emilio Mansur
Wow, thanks for your post about it.
I translated it to Portuguese-Brazil, if you dont mind (http://www.mansur.eti.br/2009/01/30/o-mcse-morreu-e-hora-de-seguir-em-frente/).
It will help me a lot with friends, presentations and classes on this year!
Friday, January 30, 2009 4:53 PM by Born to Learn
So it seems that for Bill, “ voting ” = begging the team at our last meeting, “Let me say it, me, me,
Friday, January 30, 2009 9:26 PM by perfarny
@ Julian West - good point about extending the discount during these times. I promise we ll look at it. Stay tuned.
Friday, January 30, 2009 9:43 PM by perfarny
We re working very hard to gather more data that will help us articulate the ROI for MCM better (always hard when it s something new), and drive understanding among hiring managers and recruiters.
We firmly believe the ROI is there and acknowledge that especially in these times, it is out of reach for many. Still, I can t think of a better career move - for anyone out there that is highly specialized on a technology and can manage the cost - than to get their MCM now...in these times.
But hey - I m probably biased ;-)
Great comments everyone, all around. We re definitely listening!
Saturday, January 31, 2009 9:11 AM by Tim Haynes
Losing the MCSE brand (as well as the MCSD brand) is a huge mistake. You should just append a year suffix instead.
MCSE 2008 will tell hiring managers that the person is up to date as of 2008. MCSE 2003 will show that they are a bit behind the technology curve.
Same thing for MCSD. I still advertise my MCSD although my MCPD:EAD is much more current. However, no hiring managers know what it means. (MCSD 2005 would be much more intuitive, however.)
Don t lose a great brand. It would be like trying to get people to refer to email as "iComm". It would never happen.
Sunday, February 01, 2009 2:00 PM by Niall
While you are at it, the whole marketing thing can you also include the developer certs in that. People still are asking for MCAD/MCSD rather than MCPD!
Monday, February 02, 2009 11:55 AM by Kevin
Lee,
If I understand the purpose of the MCM and MCA level certifications correctly, the experience on your resume should far overshadow the certification itself. Though it would make a great talking point in an interview.
The same goes for "becn". If your resume was previously emphasizing your certifications over your real world work experience, you were probably going about things backwards anyway. The certs are supposed to validate experience, not the other way around. My certs have always been listed at the tail end of my resume.
Monday, February 02, 2009 7:09 PM by daniel333
I would like to see Microsoft start advertising and creating gold partner requirements for the new line of certs. I peronsonally am glad to see the industry stop looking at the MCSE as the gold standard for certifications. It was entry level at best.
Microsoft NEEDS certs that really prove someone skills that the MCSE s multiple choice questions/one action sims couldn t do. Look at the RHCE and CCIE certs, this is how we should be testing people s ability.
Now lets get a PR/Marketting campaign going!
Friday, February 06, 2009 10:40 AM by Tom Swanson
Hey Bill!
You re famous! (or INfamous. You pick.)
http://mcpmag.com/blogs/weblog.aspx?blog=3420
Tuesday, February 17, 2009 8:39 PM by sxcv
Yes, its a real shame to let the mcse brand go ? What could have motivated that decision. MCitp and mcts are not catching on and i doubt they will ever do... The mcse was well recognized. Even if mcitp someday gains the same level of recognition, this move has set us back years...
Also replace a cert that had engineer in its name by one that has administrator ?
And why name the 2 new certs enterprise admin and server admin ? This is really confusing fo hr people.
I know the decision is taken and you wont change it, whatever we say, but this has really lowered the value of microsoft certifications.
Where I work, noone is planning to update their mcse to mcitp. No clients ask about it and hr doesnt know about it. And its been out for 3 years.
Talk about a really really bad move.
Saturday, February 21, 2009 4:20 PM by Matthew
Hey Bill (and MCP/MCT peeps)
Quick question/idea
Maybe add another exam to the mcitp-ea...
and make an mcitp-ee
end the title with an E
as in... Engineer...!!!
the title sa is nice
the title ea is nice
but many of us do not want to be called "admins"
(I is an Engineer !!!)
since mcse was invented...
we have proudly laid claim to the designation of "xxxEngineer"
4.0 xxxEngineer
2000 xxxEngineer
2003 xxxEngineer
then poof...
2008 xxxxxxAdmin...?
we want to be 2008 xxxxxxEngineer...!!!
hey...
just an idea...
so maybe pass it along and see if we can have part of our "titles" back
maybe a 2008 "core" design exam...
maybe a hardcore 2008 infrastructure exam, with routing/switching/subnetting, something akin to a ms version of the ccent...?
maybe a 2008 version of 298/299
mcitp Security Engineer... oooh ahhhh...
620/640/642/643/646/647 and the new 699...!!!
i dunno
4.0 E
2000 E
2003 E
2008 E !!!
I just want my E back !!!
peace
Matthew
Saturday, March 07, 2009 1:11 PM by tauqeer khan
mcse is here to live for another three years